Also see: Ramana Maharshi: The world should be considered like a dream

Question: I often read references in Ramana Maharshi’s writings of the need for ALL thought to be removed or extinguished. Is this a translation error? Perhaps he means that only egoic or self-referential thoughts need to be removed? If all thoughts are removed, how could he teach others and perform the activities of daily living, which requires some kind of thinking?

Tom: The need to remove all thoughts seems to be a very strange teaching indeed, and the objection you raise is a common-sense and valid one. However Sri Ramana was very clear that he meant ALL thoughts should be removed. Note this is also known as Samadhi, Manonasa, Turiya or Wakeful-Sleep (Jagrat-Susupti).

eg. In his short text ‘Who am I?’ Ramana writes:

‘The thought ‘Who am I?’, destroying all other thoughts, will itself finally be destroyed like the stick used for stirring the funeral pyre.’

‘As and when thoughts rise, one should annihilate all of them through enquiry then and there in their very place of origin.’

Nowhere in the vedanta teachings do we see any mention of only ‘self-referential thoughts’ needing to be removed, and with good reason too – only when all thoughts are removed will the Reality Shine. Otherwise ignorance will find a way to continue.

We see the same teaching in the Vedanta scriptures such as in the Upanishads, the Bhagavad Gita, the writings of Gaudapada and of Shankara. Eg: (nirvikalpa samadhi is a state in which no objective phenomena arise, including thoughts)

The knot of the ignorance in the heart is broken completely only when one sees his Self as secondless through Nirvikalpa Samadhi

~Adhyatama Upanishad 1.17

The mind severed from all connection with sensual objects, and prevented from functioning out, awakes into the light of the heart, and finds the highest condition. The mind should be prevented from functioning, until it dissolves itself in the heart. This is Jnana, this is Dhyana, the rest is all mere concoction of untruth.
~ Amritabindu Upanishad

Turiya is not that which is conscious of the inner (subjective) world, nor that which is conscious of the outer (objective) world, nor that which is conscious of both…It is the cessation of all phenomena…This is what is known as the Fourth (Turiya). This is Atman and this has to be realised. ~Mandukya Upanishad

In Shankara’s commentary on the Mandukya Upanishad, in his introduction to the text he writes:

Just as the normal state of a man, afflicted by disease, consists in his getting cured of the disease, similarly the normalcy of the Self, stricken with identification with misery, is regained through the cessation of the phenomenal universe of duality…since the phenomenal world of duality is a creation of ignorance, it can be eradicated through knowledge…

Gaudapada writes in verse 3.38 of his Mandukya Karika:

There can be no acceptance or rejection where all mentation stops. Then knowledge is established in the Self and is unborn, and it becomes homogenous

Shankara’s commentary on this verse 3.38 is as follows:

…therefore there is no rejection or acceptance in It, where thought does not exist. That is to say, how can there be rejection or acceptance where no mentation is possible in the absence of the mind? As soon as there comes the realisation of the Truth that is the Self, then, in the absence of any object, knowledge (Jnanam) is established in the Self, like the heat of fire in fire. It is then birthless (ajati) and becomes homogenous.

As to how can a Guru teach and function if he/she has no thoughts, the essential response is that from the point of view of ignorance it seems that Ramana is a body-mind entity (ie. a human being or person) that thinks, acts and suffers, but In Reality Sri Ramana is not a body mind at all – he is the Ultimate Reality – the Self, and it is only from the point of view of ignorance that he seems to move and act and think, etc.

Ramana sometimes said that he couldn’t think a single thought even if he tried! Oh, the paradox!

All thoughts must be removed (by Self-Enquiry)

The text Guru Vachaka Kovai is said to be the most authoritative recording of Sri Ramana’s verbal teachings. Here are some verses on the need to extinguish all thoughts:

1199. Unless the noise of thoughts subsides
      One cannot know the ineffable bliss
      Of mouna.

1066. True wealth is but the gracious silence
      Of steady, unswerving Siva-awareness.
      This bright, rare treasure can be gained
      Only by those who earnestly
      Strive for extinction of all thoughts.

(Tom: ie. for liberation, one must earnestly strive for the extinction of ALL thoughts)

1238. Siva, who is Pure Awareness
      Transcending thought, is only known
      To seers heroic who with minds
      Extinct abide thought-free within
      The heart, and not to those whose minds
      Are still engaged in thought.

(Tom: ie. Liberation is not known to those who are still engaged in thought. One must abide with ‘minds extinct’ and ‘thought-free’)

1205. The mark of bhakti true, total
      Self-surrender at Siva’s Feet,
      Is perfect peace without a thought
      Or word of prayer or plaint.

(Tom: ie. True Bhakti, which is the same as True Jnana, also has no thoughts within it)

Why do we need to remove ALL thoughts? Isn’t this too much? Why not just the self-referential thoughts?

Essentially the ego creates all thoughts – it will tell you that it only create certain thoughts, but actually ALL thoughts keep you identified with the mind, and identification with the mind is the same as identification with the body-mind. If you honestly examine your own direct experience you will see this to be the case.

Here are some articles where I explore this further:

HOW TO END EGO-SUFFERING (and why other spiritual paths tend not to ultimately work)
Turn Within? Really? Isn’t this dualistic and doesn’t this just strengthen the ego?

This is topic is also explored in the wonderful book The Most Direct Means To Eternal Bliss by Michael Langford, one of the best books ever written on liberation and which you can download for free on the link just given.

How does a sage function with no thoughts? The Jnani (Sage) does not act or think or perceive any differences (The Unfathomable nature of the Sage)

And here are some verses describing the unfathomable nature of Liberation/Jnana/The Jnani:

931. “The mukta [liberated sage] like the rest of us perceives
     The world in all its vast variety
     And yet he sees non-difference in it”,
     So people say. This is not true.

(Tom: ie. the idea that the liberated sage still perceives differences ‘like the rest of us’ but perceives an underlying unity despite various objects being seen is here being refuted.)

932. Those who mistakenly perceive
     The variegated universe believe
     The mukta too is a perceiver like them
     But he is not the perceiver.

(Tom: ie. Taking yourself, in ignorance, to be a perceiver and doer, one also, in ignorance, takes the sage to be a perceiver and doer. The notion that the sage is not a perceiver at all is one we find throughout the vedanta scriptures, but how can the mind understand this?)

119. Ascribing individual being
     To realised muktas is sheer folly.
     Their being is universal Being.
     The separateness seen in that pure
     Sky is but the shadow cast
     By the separateness of lookers-on
     Still bound.

1180. In that great Silence there is no
      Sense of difference. But is there then
      A feeling of non-difference? No.
      The non-duality extolled
      By Seer’s is nothing but the absence
      Of all sense of difference.

(Tom: here Sri Ramana states explicitly that the sage perceives no difference whatsoever, and feels no differences whatsoever. How can this be?! All difference is an effect of ignorance only!)

But do we not see the sage eating, doing things and suffering?

1135 & 1136. Even if the sense of doership
Is dead, “How could one call the sage
A mukta freed from all the bonds
Of karma? Do we not see him eating,
Engaged in work, bearing a body
Of flesh, accepting prarabdha [destiny],
And suffering pain?” If you ask this,
The answer is, “True, in your sight
He seems to suffer, you see him suffering,
But did he tell you that he suffered?”

1137 The sage enjoys as his own being
The bliss of all transcendent Being.
The error lies in these ignorant folk
Seeing him as a body that suffers

1152. Beyond the reach of words extends
The sage’s greatness. None but he
Can know his state of Being, vaster
Than the sky and than the mountain
Firmer. To experience it
Yourself, you should first shed your own
Body-consciousness.

(Tom: Oh the wonder and unfathomable nature of Self-Realisation! No matter how many times we hear the state of Moksha described, know it cannot be understood! It is truly beyond the mind! How lucky we are to have Sri Ramana’s Presence and Teachings to guide us!)

Blessings and Namaste

🙏

To understand this in greater detail, please read the PDF here